Questions You Should Know about Cheng Longjia

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Knifefighter

I'm confused. What's the difference?

Water Dragon

Taichi, Taiji, and Taijiquan are the same thing. Baji is an art that is somewhat similar to Chen Taijiquan. They come from the same area of China. Baji is good stuff, So is Chen Taiji. Both teach a unique way of hitting that is extremely powerful. Remember that and you should be fine.

BaldMonk

I have to respectfully disagree with the statement that Baji is similar to Tai Chi, when descibing what Baji is. I'm just a beginner in both styles so RAF is really the person to describe the differences in detail. Saying they are similar is saying that a wrecking ball is similar to a hand grenade. Tai Chi being the wrecking ball and Baji being the hand grenade. I'm using the analogy because for me to articulate the differences by talking about Jings and the different steps would be exhaustive. The training methods for Baji are very specific and specialized. The energy in Baji is crisp and explosive. Cross energy is an important component and goes in eight different directions. In the initial levels of training the movements are accompanied by stomping footwork to help facilitate the release of energy. With further training the energy can move inside without the stomping. It's very distinctive. If I had to compare it with a style from exterior appearance, I would say the closest one is Hsing-yi. Baji has been reffered to as Hsing-yi on steroids. I hope I've shed some light and I also hope I didn't offend by my disagreement. Perhaps my brothers or cousins can articulate what I'm tryingto say better than I can.

RAF

I'll just add a little here. In , over a Chinese dinner and translator, Su Yu Zhang explained to me how baji and Chen's taiji were similar. Another lineage holder told me that they took one of the major Chen writings on the system and compared the trained energies (I'll avoid Jings) to baji and concluded they covered the same ground. Liu and Chen Fake met in a military academy in Beijing in and compared systems. Again, same conclusion, same trained energies but what is important is the strategy and manner in which the power is delivered. You will be hard pressed to see this in Chen's yi lu but the pao chuei form, in my observations, comes close to the tempo and flavor of baji.

In , Boston demonstration of Leung (Liu's first disciple), demonstrated xing yi forms. The announcer said that some believe baji comes from xing yi others believe that xing yi comes from baji. Cartmell and Miller's book on Xing Yi neigong seems pretty close to my understanding, AT THIS POINT IN TIME, of what baji's "neigong" is all about.

My own teacher learned his Chen's taiji from Wong Meng Bi (also Du Yu Zi) who learned from Chen Fake in the s or earlier. Wong Meng Bi referred to his Chen's taiji as xiao jia, however, its flavor does not resemble the current xiao jia frame as demonstrated by Chen Peishan. My tearcher was attracted to Wong Meng Bi's form because its expression of power looked like baji. The movements have a great deal of large and small circles but none is flowery and it looks rather plain.

I have always felt a strong kinship between Chen's taiji training and system with what I know of baji and my understanding is that Liu had tons of respect for the system. He didn't try to steal Chen's taiji or put it under the baji thumb, but in the s, when there was virtually no hope of reunification between the mainland and Taiwan, he thought to preserve a great art. He created 3 levels of Chen's short forms based on his observations and discussion with Chen Fake, a zhao bao master who was his friend, and Du Ye Zi. He made the short forms to preserve the essence and so that others could learn it in a relatively quick time and not become discouraged at having to initially learn a long form. My teacher taught some of these forms at 5 colleges in Taipei and yes, I have seen them on film during that time.

As far as I know we treat baji and Chen's taiji as separate but close systems and hold nothing but the utmost respect for its practitioners and family lineage holders and also those who practice it in Jinan (home of my teacher's father).

Too much? Sorry but I too hold the utmost respect for the Chen's system. CORRECTION: CHEN XIAOWANG'S FIRST AMERCIAN DEMONSTRATION OF HIS SYSTEM AT THE TASTE OF CHINA REALLY LEFT AN IMPRESSION THAT NEVER LEFT.
(How could you let me get by with that Freudian slip of my initial post: "Chen Fake's first American demonstration of his system at the Taste of China really left an impression that never left". In my dreams! Or was this what you were referring to Walter?)

The story of Yang's taiji is another ball of wax.

Walter Joyce

RAF,
I love your posts.

Walter

Laughing Cow

Originally posted by RAF
... Wong Meng Bi referred to his Chen's taiji as xiao jia, however, its flavor does not resemble the current xiao jia frame as demonstrated by Chen Peishan. ...

Something I would like to add to this.

Haven't seen it for myself, but got it from good authority.

Apperantly Chen Pei Shan and Chen Peilin (Brother) execute Xiao Jia differently, not sure about the way Chen Peiju (Sister) does it if it is 3rd expression or more in line with one of the brothers.

Differences can be clearly seen in the way some movements like "Yan Shou Chui" are executed.

I have also heard that Chen FaKe learned Xiao Jia, but I think that for a long time it was only taught to Family while Liao Jia ws the form taught to outsiders.

Might be wrong though.

Will have more info after I get the Xiao Jia Books and VCD to compare against Chen Peishans material.

RAF

If Chen Peiju is the woman on Roam About The Taiji World demonstrating the xiao jia form then it is much closer in flavor to what I play and does not resemble the flavor of Chen Peishen.

I have private footage of what I think is her in Chen Jia Gou, private demonstration, and she is older now a bit more heavier but very powerful with really strong fajing expression.

There are just so many different tastes and flavors, can't anyone find some old footage of Chen Fake demonstrating his system? The benchmark would be nice.

Thanks Walter, I hope we all can build bridges instead of digging ditches!

Laughing Cow

RAF.

I haven't seen her yet.

But at this link you there are pics of both her and Chen Peishan.

http://www.chinafrominside.com/ma/taiji/xiaojia.html

Cheers.

GroungJing

Having establish that bajiquan is simular to Chen style Taijiquan what is Piguazhange?

I've just heard this art is often taught along with Bajiquan.

Also I've heard that Bajiquan is close to Xingyiquan in it's structure i.e. (being simple but complex and no non-sense straight to the point etc......

RAF

Laughing Cow:

I am not sure that is her. Although they use the same color outfit, the woman I have in Chen Jia Gou footage is much heavier (not fatter but big boned) and extremely powerful.

Ground Jing:

James Guo, a formal student of Liu and one of the sharpest martial artists I have ever met has a write-up on piguazhang and its relationship to baji:

http://www.bajimen.com/

Part II of the article cited below shows some of the basic single-moving postures. Pigua has been referred to the Yin side of the baji/pigua system but pigua and baji also are stand-alone systems.

http://www.wutangcenter.com/bajipigua2.htm

Somewhere else we posted how the techniques of baji/pigua get integrated into the postures. I have seen this in the 2nd level of Liu Da Kai (6 big opening).

I'll stop here. I think this topic has pretty much been covered over the last year and there really isn't anything new to add.

GroungJing

Thanks RAF

count

RAF,
You guys give away way too much good stuff. If you are interested, one of Sifu Tsou's students wrote an article for our first of the year newsletter. It is about the piqua training camp they had just this past fall. I wish I had gone. They covered some training methods for developing piqua power and the palm. They also covered the Pai Da training. I wonder why the student who wrote the article didn't write about it? Anyway, one of the students quotes about why piqua with baji.

Ultimately, Sifu explained, Piqua compliments Baji nicely since Baji is primarily a close distance or even no distance fighting style. Piqua,on the other hand,can be used for long range striking and defense,as well as opening an opponent &#;s gate or closing the gap for a close quarters Baji attack.
If I ever get board with bagua, piqua is next on my list.;)

If you our interested in reading our newsletter you can download a copy at our Chi Kung International web site. (http://chikungintl.com) Check out the action shots during the bag training sessions.

RAF

Count:

Your newsletter looks very good! Nice job. Looks like you guys are having tons of fun and learning a lot too!

Later.

Laughing Cow

RAF.


My own teacher learned his Chen's taiji from Wong Meng Bi (also Du Yu Zi) who learned from Chen Fake in the s or earlier. Wong Meng Bi referred to his Chen's taiji as xiao jia, however, its flavor does not resemble the current xiao jia frame as demonstrated by Chen Peishan.

Is it possible for you post me the movement list of your first road.

I would like to compare it to the CPS & FCL Forms, there are movements in the Small Frame Form (Yi Lu) that are not contained the Large Frame form(Yi Lu).

Thanks.

P.S.: The list can be either in english or chinese.

RAF

Actually we have never done that and thats a future project.

However, most of the names, it seemes to me, are pretty close to what Du Ye Zi played. Some of the beginning of the form closely resembles the first 10 movements of what Adam Hsu displays on his Hu Lei Jia (Hu Long Jia)/

This might get you started:

http://www.greatlakeswushu.com/1-18.html

Here is a way to short of a clip of the first Abstraction of Chen's put together by Liu:

http://www.wutangcenter.com/videos.htm

Master Su's Chen abstraction is pretty close to what we do but the flavor is really quite different. The first abstraction we play has no power, is played very smoothly and relatively low (and that is how I see it resemble Yang's taiji The postures and movements follow closely to Yang's form)

Notice the high pat on horse and its minor difference. In the second level we turn around and do a double kick. In the 3rd level we turn around do a double kick and a tornado kick. Our yi lu has a tornado kick also. I wish it were possible to show you the differences personally. Its not that much of a difference in psotures as it is the compactness of the circles and arcs. There once was a clip on the American Chen Taiiji site by Zhu TianCai whose opening of xiao jia was almost identical. http://www.americanchentaichi.com/

In the 3rd level our opening followed by jin gong dao chui employs a relatively high snap kick. I saw a clip in the 80s of Feng Zhiqiang start his form this way but have never seen anyone else do it. Often between movements 5 and 6, dan bian and jin gong dao chui I will use this kick.

If I can get Tony's attention, I will try to get him in the future to put the names out. However, as I warned, the flavor and movments are different than Chen Peishen's (at least what he put on his first tape many, many years ago). In fact, in my observation, Chen Peishen's form looks closer to the standard forms currently being played on the market.

I also most readily admit that my forms really are bastyerdized. However, almost every teachers form is personalized. What is interesting is that the abstracted forms might provide a glimpse into what some of the older iterations of Chen's looked like. Du Yi Ze got his structure from Chen Fake's father, Chen Yen Xi. However, always keep in mind that older or original doesn't necessarily imply better. Sometimes Masters, over their lifetime, revise forms such that their first generation students don't look like their last generational students. Sometimes the Master revises on the basis of his life experiences (what he did in his 20s may have not turned out to be functional or effective in 40s,50s, or 60s) or he may not been able to physically perform the material of his 20s.

Just a little food for thought.

count

Thanks RAF, we always have fun.:D Editorialy speaking, I had nothing to do with the newsletter except posting it on the web site, but it's interesting to get the perspective of these guys. Some of them are newer students or study from a distance and come to the workshops, but they did a good job. I love the training they got.

I have a list of the caligraphy, pinyin and english names for the form you are talking about as Sifu Tsou taught me from Du. It's on about 10 pages though. I'll try and digitize it for posting later. Somewhere I have the entire thing photographed, but you can't compare from a picture. Possibly Laughing Cow, if you post your list, it would be easier for me to tell you what postures are missing if any.

RAF

Actually the site of Richard Miller that I posted should cover the postures taught by Du Ye Zi. Count, check out his site.

http://www.greatlakeswushu.com/1-18.html

They have both pinyin and characters and are directly from Adam Hsu. See how they compare to what you have.

Ours will be slightly different because of the influence of xiao jia from Wong Meng Bi. However, Laughing Cow, please remember that the term xiao jia is simply what Wong Meng Bi called his version of Chen Fake's forms and may not necessiarly correspond to what is currently being taught as xiao jia.

I have sort of given up the pursuit of trying to sort all of this out and simply take and learn what is given.

count

Yes, they are almost identical in the order. The pinyin and translations are a little different but the Chinese is the same.

Laughing Cow

RAF & Count.

Thanks for the info and links.

RAF, not questioning your forms or their validy just curious. AFAIK, the official Xiao Jia lineage bypasses Chen Fake.

I am doing the forms they way CPS teaches(list will come in few hours) them, even in this Yi Lu Form we miss the "Mule kick".

So I am fully aware that the forms, flavours and so on will differ.

I also heard that Xiao Jia contains more sets than just Yi Lu & Er Lu.

To be honest I would love to see the forms I know being differently expressed.

;)

Laughing Cow

Originally posted by RAF
I have sort of given up the pursuit of trying to sort all of this out and simply take and learn what is given.

To be honest I think this is the best that we can do.

RAF

No Laughing Cow, I took you straightup and everything you asked was simply an honest inquiry. I guess I am just saying I've reached a deadend in my search and can appreciate where you are at.

My solution was simply to accept what is and go on.

All the forms are more similiar than dissimiliar.

Good exchange and please keep me posted on what you may stumble upon.

Laughing Cow

Count.

Here is the Xiao Jia Yi Lu form as it is being taught to me.

NOTE:
The numbering and movement names are per the CPS Video(81 Movements), we got additional material that has shows it in 76 Movements.

01. Yubei Shi
02. Jingang Daodui
03. Lanzayi
04. Liufeng Sibi
05. Danbian
06. Jingang Daodui
07. Baie Liangchi
08. Louxi Niubu
09. Chushou
10. Shang Sanbu
11. Xiexing Niubu
12. Zaishou
13. Shang Sanbu
14. Yanshou Chui
15. Jingang Daodui
16. Pishen Chui
17. Beizehekao
18. Qinglong Chushui
19. ShanhuanZhang
20. Zhoudi Kanquan
21. Daojuanhong
22. Zhongpan
23. Baie Liangchi
24. Louxi Niubu
25. Shoushi
26. Shantongbei
27. Yanshou Chui
28. Liufeng Sibi
29. DanBian
30. Yunshou
31. Gaotanma
32. You Cajiao
33. Zuo Cajiao
34. Zuo Denggen
35. Jisanquan
36. Jidichui
37. Erqijiao
38.Huxin Quan
39. Xuanfeng Jiao
40. Shuanfeng Guaner
41. Deng Yigen
42. Yanshou Chui
43. Xiao Qinna
44. Baotou Tuishan
45. Liufeng Sibi
46. Danbian
47. Qianzhao Houzhao
48. Yem Fenzong
49. Liufeng Sibi
50. Danbian
51. Yunu Chuansuo
52. Lanzayi
53. Liufeng Sibi
54. Danbian
55. Yunshou
56. Baijiao
57. Diecha
58. Jinji Duli
59. Daojuanhong
60. Zhonpan
61. Baie Liangchi
62. Louxi Niubu
63. Shoushi
64. Shangtongbei
65. Yanshou Chui
66. Liufeng Sibi
67. Danbian
68. Yunshou
69. Gaotanma
70. Shizi Jiao
71. Zhidang Chui
72. Baiyuan Xiangua
73. Liufeng Sibi
74. Danbian
75. Pudilong
76. Shangbu Qixing
77. Xiabu Kuahu
78. Baijiao
79. Dangtou Pao
80. Jingang Daodui
81. Taiji Shoushi

Cheers.

Laughing Cow

RAF.

Thanks, for the exchange.

I will keep you posted if I find anything new. Yeah, I am still trying to collect as much info as possible.

Keep well.

BaldMonk

I told ya RAF could do a better job explaining it than me. Everytime guys like RAF and Count open their mouths I learn something.

Thanks

Walter Joyce

With competitive price and timely delivery, GECONA SOLAR sincerely hope to be your supplier and partner.

TTT

Daredevil

I recommend interested parties check old threads re: Baji for some good discussions on the art itself and it's similarities to both Chen style Taijiquan and Xingyiquan. A lot has been said there which is still very relevant and there's no need to repeat much of that.

Don't mean to imply this isn't a good thread though.

Walter Joyce

can you list the names of those threads?
I brought this to the top because someone asked me about the xin jia form and its possible development.

Vapour

No one seems to have answered to the original question about what the difference among the words, Tai Chi, Taiji, Taijiquan so here is the answer.

The difference between taichi and taiji is the spelling. taichi is the America version spelling the chinese pronounciation. In mainland china, the proper spelling is taiji.

Tai meand great or grand, ji/chi means polarities or extreme. Grand polarities represent the fundamental concept of daoism which is graphically represented by ying and yang symbol. Chuan means fist and it represent that it is a style of martial arts. Taichichuan is a martial arts system based on the differentiation of substaitial and insubstantial and obtain majority of inspiration from daoism classic such as "tao te ching". hence the name.

In the West, far more people come in contact with taichchuan than daoism so taichi have became the byword for the taichichuan though for Chinese ears, it is very funny. It's like calling gospel singing as Chiristianity. Given the recent degeneration of taichichuan into mere dance, more genuine practioners deliberately put chuan to emphasise the martial aspect of the art. Furthermore, they often adopt taiji rather than taichi to further differentiate themselves from people who do taiji only for health. So if someone use the words taijichuan instead of taichi, the chance is that he is practicing this art as a martial arts.

Brad

BTW q=ch :D

Daredevil

Originally posted by Walter Joyce
can you list the names of those threads?
I brought this to the top because someone asked me about the xin jia form and its possible development.

Sorry for taking my time to answer, but here's a list of some threads I found on the search:

1. thread (http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=&highlight=baji), 2. thread (http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=&highlight=baji), 3. thread (http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=&highlight=baji), 4. thread (http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=&highlight=baji), 5. thread (http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=&highlight=baji)

I also recommend interested folks visit Emptyflower forum and dig up some more Baji discussions there (though I think most of you guys are already there).

RAF

Here is a little more to add in comparing Baji and Chen's taijiquan. Its a reply to Huanyuan 13 regarding Hong Junsheng's "small circle" Chen Taijiquan. Huanyuan 13 sparked up something about my Chen's form and that led to more thought on the comparision of baji and Chen's taijiquan. When Wong Meng Bi referred to his Chen's as xiao jia, I noted that it doesn't resemble what I have seen of Chen Peishen but he may have been referring to what he learned from Chen Fake as small circle rather than the xiao jia system. However, I have also heard that Chen Fake practiced a xiao jia frame also. So I am at roadblock for now.

However, these are my personal observations and you can read into them what you wish (they may not reflect all of what my teacher knows or says regarding the two systems).
__________________________________________________ _

Huanyuan13:

Yes, you have read me like a book. I came to Tony Yang for Chen taijiquan and Yang taijiquan, not out of reputation but because of their ad in the Yellow Pages.

When I got to Akron in I couldn't find anyone teaching and so I checked the ads in the book and saw that one of his students had put his school (which I found out the school never got to open in downtown Canton and he was only teaching privately) advertised Yang and Chen taijiquan. I called but couldn't understand the directions (was only in town for less than 2 weeks and he lived 20 miles south in a different town). Finally, by a lot of twists and turns, I made it to his house in and then refused to practice the Chen and Yang Abstracts he taught. I thought the Chen abstract looked too much like longfist and so I returned to Jou Tsung Hwa's Tai Chi Farm for more instruction in Chen's taijiquan. After viewing many, many films and talking to Mr. James Guo, Toronto and kungfu brother of my teacher, I came to understand Chen's taiji much better and returned to the abstractions.



In the Wu Tan(g) school, I know of no one who teaches all 3 of the abstractions in Chen's taijiquan. From what I have seen, almost everyone learns Du Yu Ze's linking form and the lao jia and then pao chui. I actually don't know that linking form although I have a copy of my teacher playing it in the s at the Wu Tan Center in Taipei. Its diffusion in the Wu Tang system strongly propagated by Adam Hsu although my teacher learned directly from Du Yu Ze. They learned in his livingroom. Adam had left for the US when my teacher spent time learning the Chen abstractions from Liu.

I've been lucky to learn all 3 abstractions and lao jia. Currently I am waiting on pao chui. The 3rd abstraction leads to pao chui.

You hit on something. Wong Meng Bi, in referring to his form as xiao jia may have been referring to it as small circle form. You rang the bell because my teacher kept saying, FOR YEARS, he likes these forms because the circles are smaller although they 85% follow the frame of Du Yu Ze and Wong Meng Bi. Also he felt the small circle movement to be more akin to the baji system.

Many people don't have the skill nor realize the that baji is full of small circle movements: You will find this in the da baji form (although translated as big frame, it contains small circle movements).

For example, if you take two movements found in the da baji form (which are also played as single moving postures) Shen or Chen (Taiwanese accent really screws up my low leve pinyin) Shou (played forward and backward) it resembles, in movement, repulse the monkey or winding hand) or Hen da 3rd movement in da baji. These all have small circle movements but if the practitioner is unskilled, they usually butcher the movment by playing from the wrist rather than waist and arm.

Even the opening block of the moving one punch is a full body but very small circle--its so subtle but yet so important and is directly trainable from turning over the da qiang (big spear exercise). Someone who plays this well will show the full body chan si jing but its so small and subtle you need a trained eye to see. But the way we store energy in the waist movements is similiar in some movement but in other movement quite different (accordian like in the waist movement Xu-jing to fa-jing). Because of the small circle movement this had led a number of practitioners to conclude that Liu put baji into the Chen's taiji abstracts. At this point, I don't think that is the case and when people look for the similiarity of baji at the lao jia or yi lu level, they don't see large circle movements and then conclude, "aha, its got baji in it". Believe me, I could really understand that coming from someone who is a Chen style purist and imagines the possible arrogance of Liu taking a system like Chen and modifying to include baji. Its really just some of the overlap in very basic training but I could see how someone in the Chen family lineage would be upset. Maybe we can say that baji looks more less like a punctuated performance of lao jia and more in flavor to pao chui.

I won't repeat the Liu stories again but so many people forget that he started martial arts training at 4 or so and continued his study through his entire life. They often fail to realize he trained and saw more martial arts than most simply because of his advantage in life: Wealthy family, highly educated and under Li Jing Lin/Zhang Xiang Wu/Li Shu Wen warlord quasi-Hebei Governor gang of sorts.

Liu also, in Tianjin, had a very close relationship with a Zhao Bao master and he never revealed much about what was exchanged and what he saw (same with his meeting with Chen Fake in 192. Also these stories were told in the s, when Chen's taijiquan was barely visible in the West and weren't done in order to enhance Liu's authority and/or image. The man knew what he knew and liked what he liked. His primary evaluation was based on efficiency and fighting potential.

Sometimes people train in baji for a bit and think they have it down because it looks so simple on the surface. But the reality is that Baji is a very sophisiticated art in theory and its complexities are very subtle (this aimed at no one in particular and I considered Omarthefish's comments and insights on the mark)

Thanks again and I may just have to order the tape by Chen Zhonghua. I like what Hong Junsheng wrote and I read these papers when the site first listed them.

Thanks again!

__________________________________________________ __

ddh

just thought I'd say that for fun. But seriously now, I get the impression from being around some good old fashion Chinese people that the better you can hide the deeper qualities of your art and still display the funtamentals means a limited number of people will get it- among them the more perceptive student who will learn the deeper qualities-ideas-concepts- -!!
Each internal system of the old school implies - learn one system well and it will expand out into a personal practice that builds on what you come to appreciate and add to your own ideas. All this applies you've practiced something with a solid classical foundation like Shaolin and then entered in appreciation of certain ideas like Taiji - then went on to appreciate the other internal arts you heard about that share common concepts. Fa-jing, whip like action, circle and square, small and large, opened - closed are very interesting concepts. Tis an exciten thing this. :)

ShaolinWood

Thanx everyone, I really enjoyed reading this!
RAF, you know your stuff!

If there is anyone who can maybe give me the movement names of Chen Xiauwang's 38 posture San Shi ba form? It's a rather new form and not practiced everywhere...

I would really appreciate it!
Thanx to everyone sharing good knowledge!

RAF

Thanks but there are some people that post here that really, really, know their Shyt, especially with regard to Chen and Yang's taiji. I'm still leanring.

If I recall, the Chen Book put out under Feng Zhiqiang and Chen Xiaowang has the 38 movement form in the back. I also think that Chen Xiaowang demonstrated most if not all of it in his first visit to the Taste of China. Its on video.

Good luck.

ShaolinWood

Will definitely check it out, didn't know about it!!
I have:Chen Style: The Source of Taijiquan
by Davidine Siaw-Voon Sim, David Gaffney

A great book check it out,If you haven't...
thanx for the advise,
Enjoy!

omarthefish

RAF,

It's funny you should bring up the idea of Liu Yunqiao bringing a little Baji! into Chen Taiji. As I think you know, my teacher doesn't do Chen, he plays Yang and Wu. But the point i was thinking of is that he talks about just the reverse. He talks about incorporateing a little taiji into his Baji!!! not the other way around. I mean where's your base anyways? Are you a Baji guy who also knows taiji or the other way around. A small but, to me, signifigant difference.

Omar

RAF

I came through the taiji door in and discovered baji late in life (-4). Saw how it significantly improved my foundation and consider it my base along with the little bagua training I know.

In my experience, much of the basic baji training overlaps with what I know about Chen's training although I understand that a baji purist or a Chen purist would strongly disagree. At this stage, I really don't care to argue the merits or the pitfalls of my approach.

In , my teacher basically went public with his baji and that is pretty much our trademark now (although there are classes that train in 8 Step Praying Mantis as a base and then learn some forms in 7 Star, Mei Hua, Mi Men etc.).

There is no one in our Center or any of my teacher's students who have significant training in our system of bagua. He has, however, opened up some of the jiben gong training to a few remaining formal students and none is teaching. So I can't really say that if you come into our school you can really major in bagua. There are only two or three students I know who even train seriously in the bagua basics. I defer to the expertise of Count and others who have trained longer in the Wu Tan(g)'s system of bagua.



Current and Future direction: Stay in the basics, that's where the gold lies.

omarthefish

We've talked a bit about this before but I never tire of Baji! background. It's interesting how all the Baji guys seem to have a Bagua and taiji but not Xingyi. My Baji! teacher has not, to my knowledge, really taught bagua to anyone. He has a couple of students who play bagua but not much and I don't know if they learned it from him. He has given me guidance in my bagua practice but not instruction per se.

With bagua, I'm about as much in the basics as you can get. 8 mother palms all the way. I know a couple other drills and a couple palm changes but that's about it. I'm still dying to know what system his (yours? ours?) system of bagua is. It seems pretty clear that the bagua I got in America was Gao style but in China....he just won't say, only "There is no bagua but Dong Haichuan's bagua!" :D You know how that works.

Omar

Muppet

Learning baji and hsing i almost seems a lesson in redundancy--if not in technique, at least in fighting strategy.

It's also interesting to note that for both, there are evasive styles to complement the training (baji+piqua and hsing i + bagua).

StickyHands

Originally posted by Muppet
Learning baji and hsing i almost seems a lesson in redundancy--if not in technique, at least in fighting strategy.

It's also interesting to note that for both, there are evasive styles to complement the training (baji+piqua and hsing i + bagua).

(baji+piqua and hsing i + bagua) = Chen Taiji?? LOL. J/K.

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Since the first census in China (), &#;ethnicity&#; has been a question on the census form. Although China has asked ethnicity question in all its censuses without changes in format of the question, type or category of ethnic groups in the censuses are different from to those of . Early censuses covered more ethnic groups and later censuses accepted only 56 ethnic groups as choice of answer to the ethnicity question. The finalization of 56 ethnic groups was a result of an ethnic classification project from the s and ended in . To understand the current framework of ethnic groups in China as well as in the census, an examination of changes in categories of ethnic groups in China, categories used in previous censuses and principles of inclusion of individual ethnic groups into the census will serve the purpose.

Categories or numbers of ethnic groups in the census are a reflection of the acceptance of the categories in a society. What are the accepted ethnic groups in Chinese society so far? As mentioned earlier, China started to use word of Minzu or ethnicity to refer to people with different ethnic characteristics a little over 100 years ago compared with its long history over  years. In the hundred years, we find the categories of ethnicity changed from an umbrella term to specific groups and from more groups to a well-defined number of groups. Here we do not attempt to explore history of the use of the concept of ethnicity in China, but do attempt to find the categories/numbers of ethnicity used in recent Chinese history, especially by authoritative figures as well as ethnic policies that may influence the general classification of ethnic groups.

4.1

Ethnic groups identified by Chinese authoritative figures

Before the Republic of China, Liang Qi-chao in his general theory of ethnicity (&#;&#;&#;&#;&#;&#;&#;) proposed that China to the world is a nation with six ethnic groups: Han, Manchus, Mongolian, Hui, Miao and Tibetan (Liang : 75&#;76). Six ethnic groups, the most populous groups then, were used to represent his vision of ethnic groups in China as well as a nation with different ethnic groups in the world. The exclusion of many other smaller ethnic groups in Liang&#;s general theory of ethnicity reflected the lack of a concept of ethnicity, fuzzy classification of ethnic groups, or even lack of interests in issue of ethnicity in Chinese society then.

During the period of the Republic of China, Sun Yat-sen, who fought the Qing Dynasty as well as foreign invasion and was the founder of the Republic of China, declared in the Declaration by the Provisional President of the Republic of China in that &#;foundation of a nation is people&#; To combine ethnic groups like Han, Manchus, Mongolian, Hui and Tibetan into one unit is the unification of ethnicity&#; (: 2). Ethnic groups in Sun&#;s declaration reduced the number to five. Unlike Liang&#;s definite number of ethnic groups used in his writing, Sun used a word &#;etc.&#; to give room to include or recognize more ethnic groups into Chinese ethnicity. However, due to too many works to be dealt with for a new government in s, Sun did not pay enough attention to the ethnicity issue, especially the number or groups of ethnic groups to be recognized in Chinese society.

Mao Zedong, as a successor of Chiang Kai-shek and founder of the People&#;s Republic of China (PRC, since ), realized the issue of ethnicity in China even before the establishment of PRC. He mentioned in that &#;China has a 450 million population, about one-fourth of the world population. In this population, over 90% are Han Chinese. Other than Han, there are dozens of ethnic groups including Mongolian, Hui, Tibetan, Uyghur, Miao, Yi, Zhuang, Zhongjiaren [Buyi], Chaoxian etc. Even at a different stage of cultural development, they all have a long history. China is a nation with various ethnic groups and a vast population&#; (: 622). Compared with number of ethnic groups in China expressed by different authoritative figures, Mao counted more ethnic groups while at the same time he put forth a limited number of ethnic groups in China. It is not hundreds but only dozens. Since the Chinese Communist Party came into power in , the government followed its earlier policy on ethnicity and emphasized the equal opportunity for development of different ethnic groups.

Within about 100 years, Chinese society accepted a rather new concept of ethnicity, interpreted meaning(s) of ethnicity by different scholars and authorities, and promoted a clear definition of ethnicity by stating qualifications to be an ethnic group. Also, over the years, Chinese started to specify the numbers of ethnic groups from fewer but larger size to more but smaller size of ethnic groups (Table 4). Until the s, other than the major ethnic groups mentioned publically by the politicians, Chinese government was aware of the existence of different ethnic groups within China. Census taking is one way to reveal the complex structure of ethnicity and is a way to push the government into gradually making the number of ethnic groups fixed and stabilized. This process of finalization of number of ethnic groups accepted is closely related to or influenced by ethnic policies in China.

Full size table

4.2

Ethnic policies in China

China has ethnic policies under different governments. The policies have affected the acknowledgement and treatment of ethnic groups and which ethnic groups are included in a census. During the national government period (&#;), the government encouraged people from different ethnic groups to build China together and to form a united and free China. The constitution of the Republic of China stated clearly equality among people of various ethnic groups. Assimilation and autonomous of the ethnic groups (especially in the frontier area) were also part of the ethnic policy. Regarding the frontier area, the national government emphasized the development in economy and education. Respecting religion and customs of ethnic groups were also key elements of the national ethnic policy (Xu et al. : 398&#;404).

Since the Chinese Communist Party took over power in , the central government of the PRC has been emphasizing equality, unity and regional autonomy of the ethnic groups, the three main principles of the ethnic policy in China. Basic elements of the Chinese ethnic policy were stated by the Chinese government as, (1) upholding equality and unification among ethnic groups, (2) practicing regional autonomy for ethnic minority Chinese, (3) developing economy and culture in the ethnic minority areas, (4) training ethnic minority cadres, (5) using and developing the spoken and written languages of the ethnic groups, (6) developing educational, scientific, technological and cultural undertakings, (7) respecting and guaranteeing the freedom of religious belief, and (8) valuing and protecting the customs of the ethnic minorities.Footnote 9 However, there were different focuses in different time periods. For example, in &#;, ethnic identification and classification (the one closely related to our topic in this article) as well as winning and uniting influential religious leaders or figures of ethnic groups were some of the policies focused on; in &#;, rebuilding the ethnic minority autonomous system, against seperationism, and a new policy for ethnic education were part of the policy (Jin : 5, 22). All the policies have aimed at a harmonious relationship among ethnic groups in China (Ma ; Wang ).

A few important laws and regulations are behind and support the ethnic policy in China. These include the Common Program of the Chinese People&#;s Political Consultative Conference (), a foundation for new China&#;s ethnic policies; the Program for the Implementation of Regional Ethnic Autonomy of the People&#;s Republic of China (), the first legal regulation on regional autonomy of ethnic groups and its major contents on ethnic minority were written in the first constitution of China in ; the Law of the People&#;s Republic of China on Regional Ethnic Autonomy ( and the amendment), a basic law for implementing the system of regional ethnic autonomy stated in the Constitution. The Constitution of the People&#;s Republic of China ( and all the subsequent 7 amendments) all affirmed and reaffirmed the equality among all ethnic groups and regional autonomy for ethnic minorities in the ethnic minority concentrated areas.

The State Ethnic Affairs Commission of PRC (SEAC) is the highest governmental organization in charge of ethnic issues in China. The organization is a ministry level organization of the State Council of PRC, which was established in , abolished in and reestablished in according to the explanation of SEAC.Footnote 10 The commission has been involved in several activities directly or indirectly related to ethnicity issues on census: the ethnic classification project in s as well as regulations of &#;Principle on Restoration and Correction of Ethnic Status&#; (), &#;Supplement on Issue of Restoration and Correction of Ethnic Status&#; (), &#;Regulation on Identification of Ethnic Status among Chinese Citizen&#; () and &#;Administrative Measure on Registration of Ethnic Status among Chinese Citizen (, worked with the Ministry of Public Security). Article 5 of the measure states that the ethnic status of an individual depends on his or her mother or father and Article 7 indicates that once the status is registered, it will not be changed in general.Footnote 11 This measure in represents the latest move of the regulation of ethnic status. The ethnic policy of the People&#;s Republic China and works of SEAC guided and helped the finalization of ethnic groups recognized in China and the result involved changes and finalization in the number of ethnic groups accepted in Chinese society as well as groups included in a census. Although we do not know exact reasons for individuals&#; selection on ethnic group for those whose parents are from different ethnic groups, as mentioned in Sect. 3.2, but minority favorable policies on education, work and promotion at work are most practical reasons given for the individual&#;s decision.

4.3

Finalization of ethnic groups in China as well as for the census

Regarding census taking and ethnicity questions between and , first, there were only attempts of census taking. For example, Mr. He (&#;) considered the population survey as the first population census in modern Chinese history (, 86&#;87). However, according to the definition of census by the United Nations, they were only efforts to collect regional population information (e.g. in Yunnan Province in and ; Chen : 22) and national demographic information (e.g. in and by the National Government; Li and Mo : 242); they were not a national population census. Second, even with the efforts of census taking, the national government did not collect any ethnicity information prior . Therefore, generally speaking, the first modern Chinese census took place in since the establishment of the People&#;s Republic of China.

Questions in the first census of China in only had six items: name, gender, age, ethnicity, relationship to household head and household address. Ethnicity clearly was an important question. According to self-reported answers of the ethnicity question, the government received more than 400 ethnic groups that year.Footnote 12 It is hard to differentiate if all the reported ethnic groups were individual ethnic groups, names of the place that the group lived, names for different groups within one ethnic group, names called by the group or other groups, or names translated from local dialect to Han Chinese (Fei : 147). This large number of ethnic groups indicated the self-recognized ethnic identity; however, the size was not practical to promote equality among ethnic groups in economic and social development, which was a goal of the Chinese government. Therefore, since s, initiated by the government, experts in ethnology, language and history as well as local influential people have been working together on an ethnic classification project. The goal of this project was to implement policies of the Chinese Communist Party for ethnic groups when the government wanted to balance personnel in government offices by ethnicity or to have clear understanding about characteristics of the ethnic groups in the ethnic autonomous regions.

Principles of the ethnic classification were two, characteristics of ethnic groups and willingness of the group to be classified (e.g., Shi ; Lin ). Characteristics of the ethnic groups were an objective rule, which was basically evaluated by the criteria of common geographical location, language, economic life and psychological make-up. These evaluation criteria were heavily influenced by the definition and explanation of ethnicity used by Stalin. However, during the classification process, Chinese also made detailed studies on name(s) and historical origin of the ethnic groups to be identified. Names of the ethnic group may come from self-called name, names called by others, or names called by each other. Thus the name provided some hint of the characteristics and relationship of each ethnic group as well as among the groups. On top of this, studies of historical origin also provided strong or weak evidence to prove or disprove the recognition of the group as an official ethnic group.

Willingness of the ethnic groups means the intension of the individual ethnic group to be listed as an independent ethnic group officially. One group may be qualified as an ethnic group in China according to the objective evaluation. However, people of the group may not want to be listed independently, or listed as this but not that ethnic group. Therefore, during the identification process, ethnicity intension of an individual group was very important. The willingness of the group was considered and respected. The name of an ethnic group was determined by the local group (&#;&#;&#;&#;&#;&#;) and the name of the group was acceptable to those being described.

Current categories and numbers of ethnic groups in the census were a product of the ethnic classification project. From the easiest to the hardiest, in &#;, China identified 38 ethnic minority groups or the most accepted ethnic groups in the past. In &#;, between the first 2 censuses, China added 15 more minority groups, plus another 2 groups in &#; (also see Table 4).Footnote 13 Since the census, China accepted 56 ethnic groups, including 55 ethnic minority groups. Therefore, 56 ethnic groups have become a framework for the ethnicity question in the Chinese census. We may conclude that numbers of ethnic groups in Chinese census have changed from unlimited to limited and from more to fewer categories. This change is for the better development of all Chinese without any difference in ethnicity, favoring the development of ethnic minority Chinese.

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